Beiträge von Queensletters

Hi all,

I could use your help and expertise in deciphering the annotations on this letter, sent from Sweden to the Netherlands via Stralsund on 7 June, 1852. This was just before the new Swedish-Prussian convention became effective, so it must have been treated according to the convention of 1847, with total postage 8+8 (2x4) sgr or 24+24 skilling banco.

My theory as follows:

-the crossed-out 8 and 9 in black in the upper right corner are letter bill numbers; the first the Swedish one, and the second the Prussian one?

-fr 4 in blue on the back is a Prussian annotation for the weiterfranco to the Netherlands of 4 sgr

-the crossed-out 8 in blue in the lower left corner is the Swedish share of postage of 8 sgr, according to the 1847 convention

-this also corresponds with the 24 in black in the upper right corner, which I assume is a Swedish annotation for Swedish share of postage in skilling banco

Then the question remains about the blue annotation in the upper left corner on the front; is this a "fr10" or a "fri0"?

-fr10 would have been the correct total postage of 10 sgr after 1 July 1852, but this rate had not yet become effective.

-However, the Dutch-prussian convention with the new rates was already effective at this point. I tested the hypothesis that the Dutch-Prussian convention could have been used by Prussia to measure out the Dutch share, but then that share should have been 2 sgr and not 4, as is written on the back. The letter is with contents, and is by no means on the border of being a double weight letter

The other theory I have is that the annotation is Swedish and reads "fri0", and that the letter was treated as a free letter up to Stralsund.

Can anyone help shed some light on this and solve the "mystery"?

Many thanks in advance for your assistance!

So after some deliberation, and after checking the book proposed by Erdinger above about van Vlissingen, I may have come a small step further. G.F. Egidius was the Swedish-Norwegian consul general in Amsterdam, so this might lead to a more "official" explanation for his stamp having been used on the back of the letters, and although Egidius indeed had a close personal and business relation with van Vlissingen and the ASM, it as probably more likely that the letters were stamped by Egidius upon receiving them in Amsterdam rather than the cancel having been used onboard the Hamburg-Amsterdam line, which was my first theory. This is supported by the fact that the red ink used for the Amsterdam cancel was not only used for arriving mail, but also for unpaid mail, according to Vellinga:

https://jdlkremer.angelfire.com/VELLINGA.1676-1915.KNBF.pdf

So I guess I might have changed my working hypothesis to something more in line with that of nils and klesammler above; upon receipt by the Swedish post office in Hamburg, the letters were given to someone (the captain?) on the Hamburg-Amsterdam line, who brought the letters with them and handed them over to the Swedish-Norwegian consul general upon arrival in Amsterdam. The consul general then forwarded the letters to their final destination. Not a procedure by the book, but still one that worked, at least for a member of the royal family Thank you for challenging my thoughts - and perhaps opening my eyes - about these letters!

Good morning! today’s question is around a letter sent via the Swedish post office in Hamburg to the Netherlands via Prussia in December 1851. Hamburg’s membership in DÖPV only became effective from 1 February 1852, so the rate from Hamburg to the Netherlands is still 50 Dutch cents or 8 sgr, in accordance with Dutch circular 381 of 1848. According to this circular, the postage was split 35/15 between Hamburg and the Netherlands so the question is; what was Prussia’s (and hannovers, prior to the postal union) share of this postage rate? I understand prussia handled the mail from Hamburg stadtpost to the Dutch border office at Arnhem, so they must have been entitled to some form of payment for the transit?

Another indicator that the letters must have passed through Germany is the “1f(ranco)W(eiter) annotation on letter number 2, which will refer to 1 silbergroschen (=5 dutch cents). Such weiter Franco annotations were normally done in Germany on prepaid overland mail to the Netherlands to single out the part of total postage reimbursable to the Dutch postal service, but it may have a different reference here; 1 sgr equals transit postage through one rayon in DÖPV, for example from Lubeck to Hamburg?

Thanks Nils, the “problem” here is that red ink was used for arriving mail and black for outgoing, so on the last letter you will see both a red Amsterdam arrival cancel and a black Amsterdam departure cancel on the stamp itself, meaning the letters must have arrived in Amsterdam from somewhere else. The lack of a Stockholm departure cancel is not unusual; Franco letters delivered directly to steamships in Stockholm will not have a Swedish departure cancel. Interesting nuts to crack, these letters!

Hi all,

Just a few words to introduce myself as a new member here in this forum - and to apologize for not being able to communicate in German (although I can understand a lot). I am a member of the Oslo Philatelic Society and the Norwegian Postal History Society, currently working on a project related to the correspondence between Queen Louise of Sweden-Norway and her governess Victoire wauthier in The Hague. The correspondence covers the period between 1850-71, and naturally involves various transit routes through the German states, which at times brings up questions around transit postage rates, conveyance, postal regulations, etc. I hope you will bear with me And I hope of course that I can be of service to this forum as well. Looking forward to many good discussions here. Best regards, Kent

Dear all, I am undertaking a study on a correspondence between Sweden and the Netherlands around 1850 and forward. Before the Austrian-German postal union was establised, the single letter rate was 48 skilling or 100 cents/16 silbergroschen; 24 skilling up to Hamburg, and 50 cents/8 silbergroschen from Hamburg to the Netherlands. I am trying to find out whether this included any transit postage to Hannover, and if so; how much. According to the Swedish-Prussian convention of 1847, Prussian transit postage was 4 sgr, so the remaining 4 should be divided between Hannover and the Netherlands; I think with 1,5 to Hannover and 2,5 to the Netherlands, but I have not been able to find anything documenting the Hannoverian transit rate. Is anyone able to help?

Hi nordlicht; letters 2 and 3 have franco annotations, and all three letters have the red Amsterdam arrival cancel, meaning they arrived Amsterdam from somewhere else. I am trying to establish the exact connection between G.F.Egidius and ASM, but they were indeed in business together on the Hamburg-Amsterdam steamship route, so it seems pretty clear the letters were indeed onboard Willem de Eerste on its departure from Hamburg on 5 September. The fact that the letters do not have Stockholm departure cancels is not unusual; it may be because the letters were delivered directly to the steamships in Stockholm. These steamships did not carry their own cancels. But the Dutch postage due annotation is indeed unusual...

New attempt with larger file size:

Thanks, Dieter, let's see if this works better;

Dear all,

This is my first post in this forum, so bear with me if I didn't put this in the right category

I am looking for some help with a few letters sent franco from Stockholm to the Hague in August/September 1853. Normally, these would have followed the overland route via Hannover, Minden, Hamm, Emmerich, Arnhem to the Hague, but for some reason (cholera outbreak?) they seem to have been sent by steamship from Hamburg to Amsterdam instead. Two of the letters have "G.F.Egidius" cancels on the back, indicating they were sent with the steamer "Willem de Eerste", which departed Hamburg on 5 September and arrived in Amsterdam on the 6th. The first letter was sent to Lübeck, as noted, with the steamer "Lübeck" on August 29. The second letter dated August 31 has an annotation indicating it should be sent by the steamer from Stockholm to Stettin. However, the letter must have been rerouted to Lübeck with the steamer "Gauthiod" on 1 September, since there were no Stettin departures between 30 August and 6 September from Stockholm. In that way, it seems both letters ended up together on Willem de Eerste, arriving in Amsterdam at the same time on 6 September. So far so good.

However, along the way, they have received postage due annotations in Dutch cents, and this is what I need to understand: The letters were prepaid to the Hague, so why the postage due? Does it have something to do with a steamship surcharge, in addition to the normal postage rate, or were the letters subject to additional Dutch domestic postage since they arrived by steamship and not by land?

The third letter is even more confusing. It arrived in Amsterday on 13 September, so two days too late for the Hamburg-Amsterdam steamer "Stoomvaart" which arrived in Amsterdam on the 11th, and it does not bear the "Egidius" cancel like the two others. On the other hand, it has a Dutch 10 cent stamp affixed and cancelled, overlapping a "franco" annotation underneath.

Does anyone have an idea what could have happened to these letters, and what the different annotations can mean?

Best regards, Kent