Beiträge von robfaux

Martin
Danke! Das englisch wird geschätzt.

My error must be in converting to the new kreuzer. It is not an exact 3 kr to 5 nkr conversion. So, rounding up at the old 9 kreuzer rates in the 1854 convention would give 16 new kreuzer. Suddenly it makes much more sense to me. It seems the 1862 agreement I have found is simply confirming the old convention as being back in force.

I believe the confusion began by looking at Austrian internal rates and seeing 9 kr converting to 15 nkr. At that point, I assumed that the same progression would follow with Sardinian (and the Kingdom of Italy) rates.

You patience and willingness to explain is appreciated.

Rob

I think the effective dates for the rates shown above are: May 15, 1862 - Apr 22, 1867

If someone sees this is wrong, please say so.

Best,
Rob

Here is an item for which I have a question!

Why would they have struck PD at two different places AND the 7 AED marking?
Also, is "7" the office number that corresponds with St Louis?

40 centimes per 7.5 grams : Jul 1, 1850 - Sep 30, 1865
Dateline in letter reads “Bale 27 Oct 1864"
Basel Bad Bahnpost Oct 31, 1864
P.D. twice
Suisse St Louis Nov 1, 1864
7 A-E-D
Lyon Nov 2, 1864 (verso)

The 7 AED marking seems to be an artifact from earlier postal procedures in France.
AED = Affranchi a l'Etranger jusqu'a Destination
(Foreign mail paid to destination)
The numeral ('7') identified the exchange office. I assume St Louis, but I suppose it could have been Lyon as well - though I thought Lyon was "15"

The Bad Bahnpost marking indicated that this item was posted on the Baden traveling post office in Basel. Baden and Switzlerland entered a treaty agreement on July 27, 1852 to develop a railway station that would be run by Baden railway on Swiss soil in Basel.

Best,
Rob

Here is a favorite item of mine just because it looks so good!

Same rate as above. This one crosses at Basel and is given the Mulhouse exchange marking because it is a local destination. It seems to me that Mulhouse exchange would NOT occur for any other destinations in France other than the Mulhouse area. I would expect St Louis markings or Paris markings for other destinations. (Unless someone can tell me I am incorrect - I am always open to that possibility).

Dates are so clear, I'll just let you read them on the cover.
Rob

This is another interesting thread of posts for me. It looks like Kevin is picking up as many border crossing and exchange office options as he can.

I only have a few to offer for viewing. Since Ralph wanted to see my Swiss covers, I put some in the Swiss to Italy thread and I will put a few here. I don't think there is anything very special here, but if someone sees something I did not, I am happy to learn.

This first is an 1866 item showing the 30 centime letter rate. 30 centimes per 10 grams : Oct 1, 1865 - Dec 31, 1875

Zurich Jun 13, 1866
Geneve Jun 14 66
Geneve - Sion - Geneve Jun 14 66

Suisse Amb Marseilles Jun 14 66
Marseilles Jun 15 66

I would assume the crossing at Bellegarde as that's where the most likely railway route would be at the time.

Rob

Zitat von bayern klassisch

... you are right. Would like to see more of your Swiss covers to Germany or beyond.

Ralph,

Well, I hate to disappoint you at this time. But, you've seen them. One to Wurttemburg and one to Austria. Otherwise, I have Swiss items to France and Italy. that's about it. I wasn't kidding when I said I was new to learning this material. Hopefully, I am proving to be an apt student.

The first motivation for my learning was to get a better understanding for items like what I show below. I know it doesn't belong in this topic area. But, the more I understand mail interchange in Europe, the easier it is for me to understand US to Europe (and through Europe) mail.

I will share as I discover.

Best,
Rob

Zitat von bayern klassisch

Yes - we either see Schweiz über Baden OR Friedrichshafen. Swiss letters via Wurttemberg or Bavaria to Bade never show the handstamp Schweiz über Baden.

Ok, I understand this. So, that must mean that the Baden marking was applied and then a choice was made by Baden post to take a lake steamer anyway since Friedrichshafen does have a backstamp on this cover.
Very interesting.
R

Hello all!

I am trying to read a different thread each day for a week and try to understand some of what is in it. So much to learn!

Most of what is here is much older than what I normally collect, but I still enjoyed seeing what is here.

All I can offer is an 1867 item paying 2 silbergroschen from Barmen to Amsterdam (Oct 11, 1867)

Rob

Zitat von Bayern Social

@ Rob: Thank you for showing this exiting cover
Martin: can you write the title of the book, please?

I am just happy to be able to find interesting things and have the chance to research them. I am glad you enjoy seeing them. I think I know enough now to make pages for these.

Rob

Zitat von bayern klassisch

Hello Rob,

I think that the 10 meant 10 Rappen for Switzerland and therefore 9 Kreuzer "Weiterfranko" for Austria.

There were international problems with many letters, who showed big numbers, that could have been taxnumbers as well, on the front side, as post clerks often didn´t know, wheather it was a "Weiterfranko" (prepaid for the Country of the addressee), or a certain amout of Kreuzer, which they should collect from the addressee.

This is part of what makes these puzzles so very interesting. Increasing mail volumes, changing mail systems, movement in country borders and improving transportation. It is not a surprise that post workers might be inconsistent at times and make mistakes.

The hard part for us is determining what is in error and what correctly reflects the process of the postal system at the time.

Looking at the other items you show in your exhibit, I feel like the "9" would correctly show the credit for the amount paid to reflect the 3rd rayon in Austria. It seems to be similar in style and intent as some you show. For now, I will just file this as an unsolved mystery for me that may not have an answer that is knowable.

This stuff is better than Soduku.

Rob

Zitat von bayern klassisch

Hello Rob

nice one! As this letter to Wurttemberg was dispatched via Bade, Bade got 6 Kreuzer from Switzerland and Switzerland kept 10 Rappen for their 1st Rayon.

If the Swiss hat sent it via lake Constance to Friedrichshafen (Wurttemberg), what was regular, Wurttemberg had got 6 Kreuzer from the Swiss postoffice.

Hello Ralph,
I am not sure I understand. The markings on this seem to show Constance to Friedrichshafen. So, it did enter Baden at Constance.
Am I to understand the Schweiz uber Baden marking was intended for overland carriage from Constanz and it would normally be omitted if it went by lake steamer to Friedrichshafen?

If that is the case, then they changed their mind and sent it by steamer even after putting the Baden marking on this item.

thank you for being willing to comment and discuss these items with me. It is helpful.
Rob

Here is an item from Switzerland to Wurttemburg.

Neunkirch Nov 14, 1865
Basel-Constanz Bahnpost Nov 15
Schweiz uber Baden
lake steamer
Friedrichschafen Nov 15
Wurtt Bahnpost markings Nov 15 (Zug 20)
rail via Ulm to Stuttgart

Markings I am not certain of:
- round marking on the back next to the Basel-Constanz marking.
- red crayon with blue over it that looks like a wieterfranco marking on the front
- 17 marking on back - I assume it is a carriers marking

Rate: I assume the 30 centime rate works the same way as the rate to Bavaria or Austria. 1st rayon for Switzerland (10 centime) and 2nd rayon for Wurttemburg (20 centime).

Best,
Rob

And, one last one.

This shows a border rate example:
10 centimes per 10 grams : Jul 1, 1862 - Dec 31, 1875

Splugen Oct 10, 1865
Splugen Pass
Chiavenna Oct 10

Of interest is Article III of the 1862 convention that notes the route up to Chiavenna is the responsibility of the Swiss postal services.

Best,
Rob

Here is another 30 centime rate item from Switzlerand to Italy.

This item travels from Geneve via closed mail through France (Savoy), then Mont Cenis and then rail at Susa.

Geneve Jul 23 1863
St Julien border crossing into France
Mont Cenis
Da Susa A Torino Jul 24 63
Milano Jul 25 63

As always, if someone sees I do not have correct understanding, I am always happy to learn.

Best,
Rob

Hello all!

I have found this topic to be very enjoyable. And you show so many examples via Simplon pass! I had not seen any before this.

Below is a standard 30 centime rate from Switzerland to Italy
30 centimes per 10 grams : Jul 1, 1862 - Dec 31, 1875

Horgen Apr 24 1867
Zurich Vormittag Apr 24 67 (verso)
Chur Apr 24 67 (verso)
Splugen Pass
Como A Milano Apr 26 (verso)
Milano Apr 26 67 (verso)
Genova Apr 26 67 (verso)

I assume, maybe incorrectly, that this traveled on Lago di Como via lake steamer to Como given the time from Chur to Como. But, perhaps 1867 is a little late for lake steamer carriage for such an item?

Thank you for excellent posts in this topic.

Rob

Danke Martin!

Do you know when this rate become effective? I have seen reference to a change in 1862, but this is the first I've seen the documents showing these rates.

I can work out the German as long as I am patient. I am afraid my very limited German is what makes it harder for me to find the resources. Once I have them, I usually can figure them out - even if I am slow.

Your help is very much appreciated and your explanation is very clear.

Rob

Ah! So, an item originating in Geneve might qualify, but very few
locations in Switzerland would qualify as being in the 2nd rayon as of
that point.
And, because of the postal union, bordertaxpoints were shared between Austria and Bavaria, etc.

I think I am understanding well enough now.

But, I still wonder why 9 kreuzer is crossed out and replaced with 10 kreuzer?

Many thanks! I have enjoyed viewing your specialized collection.
Rob

Here is what I think I understand from your exhibit.

Starting in Oct 1852, Bavaria had 3 rayons based on distance. up to 10 meilen, 10-20 meilen and over 20 meilen. Charged 3 kreuzer per rayon to prepay postage.
Switzerland had 2 rayons, up to 10 meilen and over 10 meilen. Again charged 3 kreuzer per rayon
3 kreuzer is equivalent to 10 rappen/centime in Swiss postage.

All rates from Bavaria were per loth. Not sure of correspondence for Swiss. Was it a direct 17.5 g?

Bavaria (and in my case, Austria) would write the amount belonging to Bavaria (or Austria) based off of the number of rayons crossed in Bavaria for letters arriving from Switzerland. So, 3, 6 or 9 kreuzer are possible by this logic.

In 1859, changes were made to determine distance that allowed selection of the closest entry point to Bavaria to the destination. If I understand the logic, that means there shouldn't be a 3rd rayon in Bavaria - which is why you say there is no 50 rappen/centime rate. Am I correct?

However, I don't think the same can apply to Austria as the closest point probably was where this one entered at Haag/Feldkirch. It still exceeds 20 meilen.

Am I missing something else?
Rob

Here is the reverse of the item in question.

Basel Dec 12, 1866
St Gallen Dec 13
Haag Dec 13
about 29 meilen in Swiss
--------
Feldkirch (Austria) Dec 14?
Innsbruck Dec 15
Vulpmes Dec 15
about 23 meilen in Austria

I took the link you share. Oh my!

There is a lot to look at there. This will take me a while.

Thank you for sharing that. The item above is on its way to me. Once received I can provide the back of the item. The scan I received is poor and I had to ask for some clarification before I purchased.

Best,
Rob