Hello Rob.
The German currencies are diificult for Germans too. You always find pitfalls , when you look in descriptions. You will get better with it with more practice.
Thank you for your offer to help. I might ask you about some details in my transatlantic- collection.
Best regards , Martin
Martin,
Your help is greatly appreciated and very valuable to me. My utmost thanks.
I will check my maps on the section of the route you mention. I seem to recall that both were options in 1867, so it is more a question of which had the advantageous schedule. Probably best for me to not even guess unless I can find a reference that would confirm one over the other. I was beginning to understand what you say regarding rate from the US not keeping up with those in Europe, but your post finally pushed me to a much better understanding. Thank you.
I am also aware of Mr. Littauer's work. His exhibit material can be found at the US Philatelic Classics Society site and I had just located it a few days ago, but I had not yet found the information you provide.
I find that I am often not so far away from understanding, but I have two problems that usually get me into trouble.
The first is shown by your explanation below.
In these times Bremen wouldn`t show Grote currency on transit letters . Bremen would debit Us 3 Sgr. for GAPU and Italy and would write 1,5 Sgr. weiterfranko to Italy.
Because Bavaria would be the german point of exchange to Italy, the 1,5 Sgr were canceled and changed to 6 Kreuzer rheinisch -which would be equivalent.(from Bavaria the letter would be rated 12 Kreuzer and 6 Kreuzer Weiterfranko). you see the 6 in red on the right of the 1 1/2.
The currencies of the time in Europe are something where my knowledge is still weak. This is often why I get stopped with analysis on a cover and I just need to keep working to fix the problem. I can not remember when or where I got the grote currency for this one. I suspect it was supplied to me by someone in the US who was equally unsure about currencies in the German areas. this explanation makes perfect sense to me now. I think I started to get a sense for it when I had help figuring out an item from Austria to the Netherlands during the same period.
The second is the normal issue of collecting all of the appropriate references, including the conventions and other official documents that help one figure out these covers. It's compounded by my typical US isolation from any language other than English. Online translators do make it easier, but it is still a chore sometimes. 
I also want to learn, but I keep bouncing from French to Italian to German to Dutch - that doesn't help.
If you have suggestions for resources on German rates to other countries prior to 1875, I would be anxious to find them. I am also always interested in finding online copies of the postal conventions and other postal documents that outline foreign mail procedure.
My thanks to you and to Ralph for the help. I am willing to repay as I am able.
Best,
Rob
I do not see the items posted here? Have they been deleted or where they never added. I would like to see this.
Rob
Ulrich,
Glad to help. The 3 cuartos due on delivery of the item.
Best,
Rob
Here is a page from my collection. I think it will answer your questions.
Rob
Shame on you. [Blockierte Grafik: http://www.altpostgeschichte.com/wcf/images/smilies/wink.png]
Dietmar,
How did I MISS that?!?
No, it is still interesting to me (and perhaps I'll say more on that later). But, that is so terribly obvious now that you say it. 
And this is why it is wonderful to have access to this forum. I would have seen this eventually, but I clearly had a blind spot. Wow.
My thanks.
Rob
Laurent,
Merci!
bateaux
I am ashamed to say that I typed it correctly the first time and then deleted the "x" Very sad. 
And yet another. This one is for the prior 60 centime rate. I still need to write it up.
But, again, here are the numerals.
Rob
Here is another one (note list of numerals at right on back portion of folded letter):
France to Amsterdam
Triple Weight Letter
Paris P De La Bourse Jun 22, 1870
1 in star
Amsterdam Jun 23, 1870 (verso)
Here are the fronts of the covers shown above.
One from France to Amsterdam and the other from Italy to Amsterdam.
French cover:
Double Weight Letter - 40 ctms per 10 gms : Apr 1, 1868 - Dec 31, 1875
Paris P De La Bourse Jun 3, 1868
Amsterdam Jun 4, 1868 (verso)
Italian Cover:
50 centesimi per 10 grams: Jan 25, 1868 -
Firenze Ufc Succursale N.4 Apr 28
(Branch Office Number 4)
Franco (paid)
P.D. (paid to destination)
Verona Apr 28 1868 No 3
train #3 to Milan
rail to Como
steamer on Lago di Como to Colico
coach to Splugen
Chur-St Gallen Z14 Apr 30 68
(Zug 14 - train #14)
K Wurtt Fahrnd Postamt
(Wurttemburg ambulant post office)
Amsterdam 2 Mei 68
Merci pour les noms des bateau, Laurent.
My best attempt at composing my own phrase in French. I will get better at it. I hope.
Best,
Rob
Hello all!
I have noticed some similar markings on letters incoming to Amsterdam in the 1860's. Examples are shown below.
They are a series of numerals, some in black, some in blue. Is there a postal significance here? I also often see the numeral that looks like a '2' or '6' in red or blue on items arriving in Amsterdam. One item is from France, the other, Italy. I have others, but just found the file sizes to be too large, so will work with them later.
Suggestions as to where to look to figure this out would be appreciated.
My thanks,
Rob
St Navaire to Vera Cruz steamers
Hello all!
I don't have access to the Salles books and won't for a time, but would still like to identify the steamership names
that carried three covers from France to Mexico. Arrival dates aren't
necessary but would be nice.
Cover 1 is Ligne B Paq Fr No 1 Jul 16, 1866
Cover 2 is Ligne B Paq Fr No 2 Feb 16, 1868
Cover 3 is Ligne B Paq Fr No 3 May 16, 1869
Many thanks in advance.
Rob
Hello Rob
No - there were Initials on letters to show the postmen, wheather they had to collect money, or not.
We usually see 1 Kreuzer, or nothing like here. So this on your letter ist a ZERO, as 1 Kreuzer of TT was not a Transportation fee, but only "Bestellgeld" for the postman (which he was not allowed to keep, as all he received on his tour went to to the Monarch, who was one of the richest man of his time worldwide.
Ok, danke. Just a normal local letter. Perfectly fine with me.
Best,
Rob
Hello all!
Below is an item that I do not fully understand.
It appears to be a local letter (lokalkorrespondenz) at the 1 kr rate.
Yet I see what appears to be a due marking of some kind on the front. Possible bestellgeld?
Item is only a wrapper, letter or content was not included.
Attempt at Deutsch:
Ich verstehe das nicht. Dieser Ortsbrief scheint eine frankierte Markierung zu haben. Ist es eine bestellgeld? Danke.
Best,
Rob
Hello all!
Here is an item I see on an online site that is for sale. It appears to actually meet the criteria for 50 centime rate from Switzerland to German States.
Origin is Geneve, so that should make it 2nd rayon for Switzerland. Destination is Frankfort, which should make it third rayon - hence 50 centime/rappen rate.
Am I correct here?
Rob
Double rate letter (wrong 16, correct 32 handstamp). 8 Silbergroschen: Thurn und Taxis (6 Sgr.) plus Switzerland (2 Sgr.), so 3rd rayon German states and 1st rayon Switzerland.
Completely transferred by rail to the Swiss border.
Ralph,
Yes, you are correct with your assessment. And, it is an item I like very much in my exhibit.
With most US postal history descriptions you find in the United States, the European portion of the equation is often not covered in much detail. Typically, descriptions stick with a general route that focuses much more on the trans-Atlantic portion to the first foreign exchange office. If it is convenient the description will mention various tax stamps like the 8 silbergroschen, etc without accurate account telling what it is for. Of course, details are given if they are convenient or truly outstanding in some way.
I think I understand why this is. Part of the reason is that it is often a difficult puzzle. Another reason is that we Americans are very poor at deciphering any language other than English. There are many resources that exist that we fail to access because we can't read French, or German, or Spanish or... I am forcing myself to read postal conventions, works by Salles and others. It is hard work for a person who has very little "foreign" language training. This is why I am very grateful that you and others on this board are willing to help me in English.
I desire more accurate and complete descriptions when I can decipher them. Richard Winter has done much with this area, but I believe he gained much of his understanding by studying European mail systems as well. He is a scholar I believe is a worthy one to follow, if I can.
I have some better weather coming the next few days. So, I will likely not be online as much as I have been the last couple of days.
Best to all!
Rob
Martin
Danke! Das englisch wird geschätzt.
My error must be in converting to the new kreuzer. It is not an exact 3 kr to 5 nkr conversion. So, rounding up at the old 9 kreuzer rates in the 1854 convention would give 16 new kreuzer. Suddenly it makes much more sense to me. It seems the 1862 agreement I have found is simply confirming the old convention as being back in force.
I believe the confusion began by looking at Austrian internal rates and seeing 9 kr converting to 15 nkr. At that point, I assumed that the same progression would follow with Sardinian (and the Kingdom of Italy) rates.
You patience and willingness to explain is appreciated.
Rob
I think the effective dates for the rates shown above are: May 15, 1862 - Apr 22, 1867
If someone sees this is wrong, please say so.
Best,
Rob
