Beiträge von Grenz-NL

I have consulted an English expert on this matter, and he replies: The rate from Manchester to London was 11d, less 2d long distance reduction for
this letter, making 9d. The letter is marked double. So half of 4s/2d is 2s/1d;
less 9d internal GB is 1s/4d. This strongly suggests the letter was sent via
Holland at the Dutch tariff, not the higher German tariff.

Route direction P Stockholm
In the 1841-tariff for Finland we see:
Via Ystad and Stralsund exclusive of the postage from Finland to Sweden
For mail to Spain, Portugal: Weighing more than 1 Loth but under 1½ Loth inclusive: 145½ Silver Kopecs. Add 33 for every additional Loth.
The 145½ is for a prepaid letter going southwards
On the letter we see 144½ but that's for an unpaid northgoing letter.
so I will conclude that this letter was unpaid for the full stretch.

The sail-packets had the terminal in Cuxhafen until September 1832 not in Hamburg. The distance of ca 100 Km to Hamburg was paid by "4" gGr (6 H.Schillings) and paid to the Kingdom of Hanover. Since 1826 private British steamers sailed from London to Hamburg carrying ship-letters. Since Sept 1832 the British Post sailed to Hamburg with their own (contracted) steamers.The route Harwich-Cuxhafen opened in 1795. Since 1766 the postage from Hellevoetsluis(NL) to the Russian border of Polangen was 61½ Silverkopecs. Via Hamburg it was 4gGr = 16 SilverKopecs plus Hamburg-Polangen: 41½ SilverKopecs, in total 57½ SilverKopecs. To make things easier the Post maintained the 61½ independent of the route was over Hellevoetsluis (NL) or Cuxhaven. You see 61½ on both items. Up to Riga 565 Kopecs Assignat, add 14 for Riga-Narva and obtain 579.
There existed Cu coins, but it is better to say Paper-Kopecs or Kopecs Assignat because in the big cities of Europe the Rubel had three exchange-rates:
Silver,
Paper and
Cu.
The exchange rate for Cu was a little higher for Cu because a Pound of Cu-coins had a small value, while a kg of paper had no value in the case of the Russian paper-system broke down like in France 1797

In front of the 4/2 we see a "P" for "Paid". The "P 4/2" was in red to show a pre-payment. It would have been in black if it shoud have been paid by the addressee. If the letter had been posted in Holland it should have been prepaid to the Prussian first border. In a 1998-book by Ivan Trinder on "The Harwich Packets 1635-1834" we see that nobody knew who should pay for the transit through Holland 1814-18. So in the first years after 1814 Holland was paid in the form of an annual sum from the UK. Details will be added when I find them in the book. They have been found, see below

The strange notation of "18 St(uivers) bis Arnheim" is perhaps written (in Prussia?) because it wasn't sure who should pay for the Holland transit. Or it could have been written by a modern postal history collector.
The payments from the UK to the United Netherlands (also for Dover-Ostend besides Harwich-Hellevoetsluis) for transits through the United Netherlands can be found at page 106 of the Ivan Trinder book:
Jan 5th 1815 £ 2900
Jan 5th 1816 £ 3326
Jan 5th 1817 £ 2762
No further payments took place. The United Netherlands in 1817 signed a new convention with Prussia making it possible that the share for the Netherlands could be paid in Europe. Hamburg did not need such settlements because Hamburg knew how to be paid from the neighbours.

I have never seen this before: Thurn und Taxis conveying a letter a fraction of the way from Holland to Hamburg.
Posted in London Friday 3rd of Dec 1830, departure from Harwich Dec 4th. A Holland newspaper tells (included) that a sail-packet landed in Hellevoetsluis the 6th with the letters from Harwich of the 4th. The letter landed for sure in Holland, see Engeland/Over Brielle.

The normal route to Hamburg was over Deventer and Nordhorn. The Hanover Post normally took the bag further to Hamburg Stadtpost.

How were the Thurn und Taxis routes in 1830? There must have been one from Hamburg to Aachen. The arrival in Hamburg was on a Monday, so which route arrived in Hamburg on a Monday?

Thank you for the prompt reply. Of cause the parcel was sent by railway making Emmerich and Arnhem vis-a-vis border offices or more detailed: the German border Office was the TPO of the train Oberhausen-Emmerich and the Netherlands Border Office was the TPO (since 1856) on the railway Emmerich-Amsterdam (The N.R.SPOORWEG). When this train made halt in Arnhem the parcel was dropped.

Here is the scan

Hello everybody
In 1859 parcels to the Netherlands from Hamburg had to be posted at the Hanover Office in Hamburg. The connection operated by the Stadtpost was by horse-back, and heavy stuff could not be carried by the post-rider.
I'm asking for help on these questions:
1. Was the parcel transported by the train or by horse and wagon?
2. Where was the border office in the Netherlands and which German Office was the border office?
3. What is the exact text, which describes the content
Looking forward to hear from you

To send letters from the NL to Russia via Hamburg Stadtpost was something
unusual for the Prussian Post. This routing was a loss for Prussia, so they
compensated themselves by letting Russia pay an extra Sgr. (see below)
This letter turned up in Hamburg Stadtpost with the unpaid postage of 10 Hamburg Schillings (7½ Sgr). The letter was handed over to the Prussian office with the expectation that Prussia would pay the 7½ Sgr to Stadtpost. By this arrangement the Prussian share would be smaller than by the normal route that avoided Hamburg. So Prussia compensated themselves and took the 7½ Sgr, added 1 Sgr to obtain 8½ Sgr hoping that Russia accepted this, which they did as seen from the final postage.

The postage up to the Russian border was now 8½ plus 6 Sgr for the stage from Hamburg to the Russian Border ending up with 14½ Sgr

The Prussian share was:
- For the normal route 8 Sgr
- Via Hamburg
------Without compensation 6 Sgr
------With 1 Sgr compensation 7 Sgr
A private communication with "Michael"sorted this out. Thanks to "Michael"

Prussian Transit postage 13th July 1845

Dear Michael. You're right in many aspects.
There were no regulations in NL about sending the letters to Russia via Hamburg. There were newspaper advertisements of a steam-boat to SPB from Lübeck, without info on mail conveyance.
The NL corresponded with the Stadtpost in Hamburg. The charged 10 Hamburg Schillings, (7½ Sgr) The letter was handed over to the Prussian Office in Hamburg.
Now let us see how the Prussian Post calculated the transit postage since July 13th 1845:
There is two shares for 24 destinations in Western Europe:
- A foreign share
- A pure Prussian share
Especially for the NL
- A foreign share of 4 Sgr
- A pure Prussian share of 8 Sgr
For an overland letter we must expect 12 Sgr up to the Russian Border, yet we see 14½
Please proceed to the "conclusion" down below in another post
I will try to upload the Prussian transit rates of July 13th 1845
I dare only to upload one picture

Thank you indeed for your reply. I have still some questions, because this is the only item to Russia via Hamburg since 1819, which I have seen. Has this letter been in Lübeck? Was it conveyed by steamer to SPB? The postage up to the Russian border was 12 Sgr since 13.July 1845. Here we see 14½ Sgr. Was it more expensive by boat than overland mail? Is via Stettin a possibility? There are many questions, and they are hard to find out.

I'm attaching better scans (Smaller)
But it was not better
The small picture to the right is not correct
But press the picture and a correct picture will show

Please, see the attached letter. Sent 22.aug 1845 from Amsterdam to Finland, directed via St.Petersburg. Why are there two post-marks from Hamburg - from the Prussian and the Stadtpost Office? I'm attaching a time-table showing that a Russian steamer was carrying mails, plying between Lübeck and St.Petersburg once a week having a departure 30 Aug 1845. There is another detail pointing at Lübeck. Lübeck was the only state in Western Europe having a transfer postage through Prussia of 8½ Sgr. The total postage up to the Russian border is indicated as 14½ (written upside down) reduced to 47 1/4 Kopecs. Adding 10 Kopecs for inland Russian postage we 're ending up with in total 57 1/4 Kopecs as found to the left. For the stage from Amsterdam to Hamburg I would expect 10 Hamburg Schillings, adding 2 H.Sch. up to Lübeck, summing up in 12 H.Sch. or 9 Sgr, but we've only 6 Sgr left for A'dam-Lübeck!

Danish weight Scale: 1 Lübeck Schilling = 1 LSk. A single letter costed 1801-1809 7 LSk for Copenhagen-Hamburg

For a sigle sheet: Under 1 Loth 7 LSk, over 1 Loth 11 LSk

With annexes: Under 3/4 Loth 11 LSk. 3/4 - 1 Loth 14 LSk. 1 - 2 Loth 21 LSk

Other letters included: Under 1/3 Loth 7 LSk. 1/3-2/3 Loth 14 LSk. 2/3 - 1 Loth 21 LSk

Foreign weight scale when transported with Thurn und Taxis franco Augsburg:

Simple letter 9 LSk. For a full Loth: 10 LSk

Conclusion: We cannot obtain 25 LSk by combination of two amounts from above, so perhaps the "25" is not the total prepaid postage

Hello. We must separate two things for unpaid mail when France was involved:
1. Which foreign part must be paid by the adressee
2. Which payment will be paid to the foreign state

1. In this case: The "9" is paid by the addressee
2. The payment to the foreign state was executed in a different way:

On a single day all letters from Rayon 4 were weighted together. The receiving state (France) paid to the origin state (Th & Taxis) a sum (f.ex. 24 Décimes per 30 gram). The same goes for the other rayons 1,2,3 and even for transit letters a similar accountance was done.

About the ½ Loth steps. When Sweden closed a contract with Denmark in 1814 it was laid down that the transit postage through Denmark was 9 Hamburg Schillings for a single letter.

What Sweden did not understand (or Denmark did not explain clearly enough) was that the weight-scale was harsh for the way Sweden wanted for the transit. They gathered all their sealed letters into another package and sealed it at the outside.

Now the smart Danes could point at their internal regulations which said that "sealed letters inside another sealed letter would be charged one simple letter (9 H.Sch) per 1/3 Loth (5 grams)". This condition was created to prevent private people to save on the postage by sending letters inside other letters, but now the Swedish transit became a cash-cow for Denmark unless the Swedish Posts went over Ystad - Stralsund/Greifwald

Since 1832 Denmark granted a discount of 25%. 1814-1833 Sweden charged the high transit postage 1RD Banco per Loth from the Swedish citizens. In 1833 it became 32 Sk Banco per ½ Loth to put pressure on the Swedish correspondents to keep the weight down.

All this to explain why in 1821 Sweden/Prussia did not think of the ½ Loth scale, as these posts did not go through Denmark.

The Dromberg book: Mr Dromberg was from Finland, but he wrote his book in Swedish. This book is one out of 10 Finland reseach-booklets. The Finland Post Museum will guide you to the book.

The Swedish Post Museum has made photo-copies of their original circulars, so it's easy to obtain copies (30 eurocent per copy). The actual 6 pages document has the title: "Utdrag af Kongl. Majestäts den 6 Dec 1834 fastställde Taxa, hvarefter.....". Or one day I will upload it to http://www.postvertraege.de

I had to consult D.A.Dromberg "Via Gothenburg" p.58

Hamburg-Greifwald 4 Sch = 4 x 2½ (since 1832) = 10 Sk Swedish Banco

Greifwald-Finland: For a letter between ½ Loth (Excl) to 1 Loth incl 41 Sk Swedish Banco

In total 51. Finland added 10% to the foreign share: 56.1 -> 57 = 1 RD 9Sk Swedish Banco

Schwedish Skilling Banco war ab 1830 fest relativ Silber. Ein Reichbankdaler war 48 Swedisch Skilling Banco. Ein Hamburg/Lübeck Schilling war 2,14 Schwedisch Skilling Banco, aber ein ausländisch Teil in hohe von 10 Schilling wurde in Schweden nicht mit 21,4 bezahlt sondern mit 25 Swedisch Skilling Banco. Zehn preuss. Silbergroschen war in Werth genau 28,3 aber in Schweden mit 30 Swedisch Skilling Banco bezahlt.

In Finland: 33 kopeken Papier sind rund 10 Kopeken Silber (Tag-zu-Tag Werth). 1 Silbergroschen war 3,25 Kopeken Silber

Mit f. Grüsse

Grenz-NL