1. Januar 1822 wurden geänderte Tarife eingeführt ?

I need your help please. (German translation below)

In this book on arhive.org

<iframe src="https://archive.org/embed/cu31924063217883" width="560" height="384" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" allowfullscreen></iframe>

on page 101, there is a reference to : Amended (Prussian domestic) postal rates on 1 january 1822 (following the monetary reform of thaler in 1821).

Quote:

"The coinage edict of 1821, by which the thaler was divided into 30 silver groschen instead of 24 groschen as previously, made necessary an alteration of the postage charges, and amended rates were established on the 1st January 1822. No account was taken of a less amount than a half-groschen, and odd amounts were reckoned at the next half-groschen above, with the result that in certain cases the rate became higher than formerly."

I would love to find either the source itself or some representation of it somewhere.

Any help will be much appreciated.

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Ich brauche bitte Ihre Hilfe.

In diesem Buch auf arhive.org

<iframe src="https://archive.org/embed/cu31924063217883" width="560" height="384" frameborder="0" webkitallowfullscreen="true" mozallowfullscreen="true" allowfullscreen></iframe>

auf seite 101, gibt es einen Verweis auf: Geänderte (preußische Inlands-) Postgebühren am 1. Januar 1822 (nach der Taler-Währungsreform 1821).

Zitat:

„Das Münzedikt von 1821, durch das der Taler in 30 Silbergroschen statt wie bisher in 24 Groschen unterteilt wurde, machte eine Änderung der Portogebühren notwendig, und am 1. Januar 1822 wurden geänderte Tarife eingeführt. Ein geringerer Betrag als ein Halbgroschen wurde nicht berücksichtigt, und ungerade Beträge wurden mit dem nächsten Halbgroschen darüber berechnet, mit dem Ergebnis, dass der Tarif in bestimmten Fällen höher war als zuvor.“

Ich würde gerne entweder die Quelle selbst oder eine Darstellung davon irgendwo finden.

Für jede Hilfe wäre ich sehr dankbar.

Zitat von Klesammler

Hello,

the postal taxes remained Gutegroschen until 1824-12-31. With date of 1824-12-18 the Regulativ über die Preußische Porto-Taxe was edited. So the prussian postal taxes in Silbergroschen had been valid since 1825-01-01.
I add first and last page of the reprint of Prussia collectors circle, edited in 2004.

Dieter

Hello Dieter/Klesammler.

Do you have a source from where it says that the old rates in gGr would be payable in sGr until the major new postal law of 1.1.1825 ?

Because that means that the postal service would instantly lose something like 20% on all their rates would they not, after september 1821 when they switched to sGr ?

Zitat von Pälzer

...and the first consequence of this was a new tariff breakdown for newspapers:

Regulativ über die künftige Verwaltung des Zeitungswesens vom 15. Dezember 1821

...which came into force on 1. Januar 1822:

https://www.dasv-postgeschichte.de/pdf/18211215_Preuss.pdf

My translations were made using google, I am sorry if that confused you.

So the book I referred to seem to have just grabbed the newspaper regulation and pretend it to be a general regulation of the postal rates on 1.1.1822. Only on 1.1.1825 the real postal change came (according to klesammler)

Zitat von Pälzer

...the criticism was not directed to your google translation, but the wording "coinage edict 1821" in the quoted book. It`s okay to use such abbrevations in literature ...provided that the source is specified. Such things can lead to such wrong conclusions, that a change in the whole prussian postal tariff system had already occurred in 1821. But it's nice that we were able to clear this up with help from Dieter too.

I concur, and thanks for helping out

Zitat von Klesammler

Hello Charman,

you can try to use DeepL. I heard several times that they improved a lot during last 2 years and the result would be better than that of Google translate.

best regards
Dieter

Thanks. i never heard of DeepL before ... will give it a try

Zitat von Klesammler

the postal taxes remained Gutegroschen until 1824-12-31. With date of 1824-12-18 the Regulativ über die Preußische Porto-Taxe was edited. So the prussian postal taxes in Silbergroschen had been valid since 1825-01-01.

Klesammler Do you have a source from where it says that the old rates in gGr would be payable in sGr until the major new postal law of 1.1.1825 ?

Zitat von Klesammler

Hello,

I made a telephone call to Mr Gaefke, who is the head of our circle with more than 50 years of experience. He told me that the years 1822-1824 are a very difficult time. Silbergroschen really was valid since 1822-01-01. The experts suppose that it took quite a long time to arrive in all post offices. They all had a list of destinations with taxes they had to charge. But unfortunately these taxes were based on Gutegroschen. So Prussia will have a loss using the old rates. The result was a new system of taxes, based on distance and weight, valid since 1825-01-01.
All our knowledge about the time 1822-1824 is experience, we don't know sources.

best regards
Dieter

Thanks for your input Dieter, it's classy.

I had not found any regulation on the monetary system according to the postal system and the rates, and it seems I am not the only one

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So far I have been able to deduce from my research, I suppose Prussia went back to pre-Napoleonic rates after the defeat of 1814-15 to erase any trace of french impact on the postal services, for some obvious nationalistic reasons (even if some of the french functions may actually have been a modernisation and worth keeping).

Would you agree with me that the Postal Law of 1782 was in effect from 1814 until 1825 and possibly the regulations like

"Nachweisung der Ort entfernungen nach den Postkursen nebst einer allgemeinen Portoberechnung von Berlin ab auf alle Handlungsplätze Deutschlands"

from 1789

??

Zitat von Klesammler

As far as we know Prussia used the taxes of a regulation published in 1810. But we always must remember that large aereas of western Germany had been part of the French Empire as Départements Conquis.
I add a list of taxes from Berlin to other towns in Europe. Every post office had such a list.

Dieter

Klesammler That 1810 list I thought was a derivative from the 1782 law ? But that is speculation on my part, not something I can back up with material.

Do you know what "law" it is derived from, if any ?

Were there a similar rates-list handed out to all those major cities with their city as the "center" ?

Another point is that what I am interested in, in particular, is Berlin and its "Vor-orte" and the rates between a smaller "Postwärter-Amt" and another "Postwärter-Amt" or a larger "Post-Amt" are not listed. This is to some extend the case with the "rates according to distances" from 1789, I mentioned earlier.

This is a tricky subject to be sure. I suppose that some deep analysis of a lot of material may shed some light on it over time.

bayern klassisch Basically a devaluation. Usually this ends up creating more problems that it solves as nominally prices have to go up to adjust to normality do yhey not ! When the government scr*ws with the monetary system it always goes down the drain (1923!!)

Zitat von bayern klassisch

Absolutely correct. I´d wish our politicians knew that as well.

They don't ... and they don't care !

Zitat von bayern klassisch

Correct again - but they do know nothing about history and financial history, so where should the knowledge come from? AND they don´t care about us, to add that.

When you have a hammer, you see lots of nails around you. Therefore it is easy for them to devaluate any currency, whilst the self-caused much bigger problems break up, when they are pensioners.

Normal humans plan for a lifetime,
politicians only how to get votes again in 4 years