USA - Hanover

  • Hello everyone!


    It seems that mail from the USA to Hanover during the 1860s is far less common than other German States. Of course, my perspective is skewed because I focus on the 24 cent stamp. That means I pay less attention to unpaid or stampless items and I am less likely to view items via Bremen or Hamburg. Even so, I am starting a new thread to show a USA to Hannover cover - so maybe I am not far off?


    Here is a Prussian Closed Mail item showing the double 28 cent rate for an item weighing more than 1/2 ounce and no more than 1 ounce. 14 cents are passed to the Prussian mails who cover the cost of the Belgian transit (4 cents).


    I am a little surprised by the red 1/2 on the back. Would this be a delivery charge collected at that point or is this 1/2 silbergroschen passed on?


    I hope everyone has a fine day.

    Rob

  • Hi Rob


    you are right - 1/2 Silbergroschen for delivery for the postman. This half Sgr. did not depend on the weight of the letter, so it would have been as much for a single rate letter, or a letter of 10 ounces. Shame that we can´t find out the exact date of the cover.

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph


    Terret vulgus, nisi metuat. Tacitus

  • Ralph,

    Most likely December 3, 1862 leaving New York on the Persia and arriving Queenstown on the 15th (early) but there are reasons to question that date.


    The 1/2 silbergroschen collected by Hannover postal service, I presume.


    Rob

  • Yes, no postal tax, just for the postman.


    From 1867 Hanover became, after they lost the war against Prussia, a province of Prussia, but with your letter we are still older than 1867, so the date you wrote is likely to be correct.

    Before the 1860s they paid in Gutegroschen there, which had a higher value, but the railway handstamp is not from prior to the early 1860s.

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph


    Terret vulgus, nisi metuat. Tacitus

  • Ralph,

    This agrees with my observations. My notes say something about this Verviers Coeln marking showing up in late 1861 or early 1862. Does that seem consistent with the knowledge you possess?


    Sadly, I do not know where I got that information from. I suspect it is merely form observing many US to Germany covers in auction lots and other resources. So, it may just be my own observation of the pattern.


    Best,

    Rob

  • This fits - may be some experts know the exact dates of the usage of this handstamp and may the they know the source.

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph


    Terret vulgus, nisi metuat. Tacitus

  • I looked fot the San Francsico postmark and the New York postmark. In the publication "California Town Postmarks 1849 - 1935" by John J. Williams, from 1997, the San Francisco postmark seems to me to be the No. SAF-640. It fits me best. Earliest usage 04. March 1866 - latest 15. August 1870. So the book.

    The New York postmark in "North Atlantic -Mail Sailings 1840-75", Hubbard/Winter, from 1988, I think, can only be the No. 116 (should be 25mm in diameter), used from 28. June 1865 to 13. September 1865. So far.

    I can't contribute more at the moment.


    Good luck!!


    Jürgen

    US German Sea Post

    US Sea Post

    Canal Zone RPO, FAM 5 (ohne FFC)

    Mitglied bei ArGe USA/CANADA und Canal Zone Study Group

    Stampless Cover aus dem 19. Jh. zwischen den USA und Hamburg/Bremen

  • Jurgen,

    Yes, the markings are part of the reason I hesitate with the 1862 date as they are not correct for that early. Also, the clarity of the New York postmark is less than the best. The New York marking's use dates have been expanded since Winter's book was published.


    I have done preliminary checks on sailing dates and travel between SF and New York, both overland and via Panama. Sadly, too few helpful clear markings to be sure of many things. I will keep looking.


    The shades of the stamps also tell me it may not be 1862 - has more characteristics for 1865-1867.


    Rob

  • Looking at it from sailing data.

    First, the New York marking would show the date of departure of the sailing ship from New York OR it would be one day prior to the departure of the ship from Boston for Cunard Line sailings. This is a British Packet marking, so it has to be Cunard (I have found that it will match none of the few existing Galway line sailings).


    1861 (stamp colors and paper are wrong, etc) New York Dec 4, Queenstown/Cobh Dec 15

    1862 (possible for stamp colors, probably not for SF marking) New York Dec 3 QT Dec 15

    note: December 15 at QT makes it barely possible to get to Verviers/Coeln by Dec 15 end of day.... actually pretty unlikely. (I suspect this was possible very late Dec 14 arrival - making it more possible)

    1863 NY Dec 2 QT Dec 11 - I don't believe it is a "2" and I don't believe a 4 day period from QT to Verviers

    1864 no British packet sailing close to date

    1865 Dec 6 in Boston w/ Dec 15 QT - only good if you think N York marking is Dec 5 and short turnaround to Verviers is ok. But, this looks like an arrival late in the day on the 15 at QT. So, no.

    1866 Dec 5 in Boston w/ Dec 15 QT

    I have questions about all of these.

    1867 Dec 4 in Boston and Dec 13 QT. This one actually fits. But does Hanover still collect 1/2 sgr at that time?


    As far as travel via Panama or overland. The timing seems a bit long for overland unless there was some definite weather issues. I have not been able to find that out yet. It looks more like a Panama timing.


    Rob

  • About the question "via Panama or overland". The overland routes began about 1858 and were ended 1861 in cause of the civil war, that interrupted the routes.

    I You want to red more, look here Mails of the Westward Expansion .This publication is on this page for free download. Very interesting.

    I looke for the postmark "VERVIERS COELN" in the publication "Aachener Postgeschichte und Stempelkatalog" by Bruns/Kaußen from 1998. There are two postmarks, but they are not exactly like this. One is missing the "B" after "VERVIERS", the other has in the middle row the right number in latin and not in roman numerals.

    The first (without "B") is an RPO cancel (No. A 77) and it had also the function as "Grenzübergangsstempel" for that google translator said "border stamp". I fear the translation is bad. May be someone is more familiar with the English language. Used from 1865 - 1879, in black and blue.

    The second (with "B" but latin number) is called "Bahnpoststempel im Grenzdurchgang" that is just about an RPO in use at crossing the border. This one is for mail from the USA. No. B 96b. Used from 1870-1885 in blue and black.

    I fear it does not help. But look at this book. For free You can do nothing wrong.

    US German Sea Post

    US Sea Post

    Canal Zone RPO, FAM 5 (ohne FFC)

    Mitglied bei ArGe USA/CANADA und Canal Zone Study Group

    Stampless Cover aus dem 19. Jh. zwischen den USA und Hamburg/Bremen