Spanien-Frankreich Markenzeit

Hallo Franz,

keine Zeit mehr für dein Zeitungsarchiv?

Solche Briefe sind auch viel hübscher.

Dieter

Hallo Franz,

du hast den Brief völlig korrekt beschrieben; 12 Cuartos waren das Vertragsporto für einfache Briefe nach Frankreich. Das „Rätsel“ des 5c-Stempels kann ich leicht erklären:

Zwischen dem 2. Februar 1860 und dem 15. Juli 1869 wurden Briefe aus Spanien nach Frankreich mit einer Zusatzgebühr von 5 Centimes belegt, die der Empfänger zahlen musste. Hintergrund war, dass trotz des Spanisch-Französischen Postvertrages von 1859 (in Kraft seit 2.2.1860) in Spanien weiterhin für eingehende Post aus Frankreich eine Zustellgebühr von 1 Cuarto pro Brief an den Zusteller zu zahlen war (derecho de cartero). Daher belegte Frankreich alle Briefe aus Spanien mit einer entsprechenden "Droit de factage" von 5 Centimes, die sowohl handschriftlich als auch mittels dieses speziellen Taxstempels 5 c ausgewiesen wurde. Als in Spanien die Zustellgebühr von 1 Cuarto für Briefe aus dem Ausland am 2. Juli 1869 abgeschafft wurde, strich Frankreich zum 15. Juli 1869 seine Zustellgebühr ebenfalls wieder.

Mit philatelistischen Grüßen

Ralf

****EDIT to fix incorrect information****

This item was insufficiently paid. It was a double weight letter, but paid as a single weight.

However, insufficient paid mail was rated at the same rate as unpaid mail, then credit was given for any postage paid. so, the recipient still gave the post office more money!

Franqueo Insuficiente

(insufficient postage paid)

2 (in blue) - double rate letter

90 (in blue) - 90 centimes due

9 (handstamp) - 9 decimes due

Due Amount Calculation

60 ctm x 2 = 120 ctm

less 12 cuartos paid = 40 ctm

+5 centimes for "droit de factage"

= 85 centimes

rounded up to decimes = 9 decimes

Rob

To buzones,

Ralf, what is a good resource for internal mail rates for Spain in the 1800s? Is there such a thing?

Rob

Zitat von robfaux

This is an exception to the rule that of the 'droit de factage,' 5 centime charge on mail from Spain to France.

This item was insufficiently paid. It was a double weight letter, but paid as a single weight. When an item was not fully paid, the extra 5 centimes were not charged. (...)
Due Amount Calculation

60 ctm x 2 = 120 ctm

less 12 cuartos paid = 30 ctm

Rob

Hi Rob

Sorry, but you're wrong with the supposed "exception". The 5 Centimes fee was always charged and all French taxes were rounded up to full decimals. The calculation is as follows:

Postal charges according to the postal agreement of 1859
Spain to France: 12 cuartos every 4 adarmes (= 7,189 gr) / Incoming unpaid mail 60 centimes every 7.5 grams --- France to Spain: 40 centimes every 7.5 grams / Incoming unpaid mail 18 cuartos every 4 adarmes (= 7,189 gr)

So in this case 12 cuartos = 40 centimes were missing, not 30 centimes.

Unpaid letter rate, double postage = 2x 60 centimes = 1.20 francs/12 decimes

120 centimes - 40 centimes (actual postage) = 80 centimes/8 decimes + 5 c "droit de factage" = 85

centimes, rounded to 9 decimes/90 centimes.

There are numerous examples of this procedure.

Zitat von robfaux

To buzones,

Ralf, what is a good resource for internal mail rates for Spain in the 1800s? Is there such a thing?

Rob

Rob,

there are several sources.The primary source is usually the "Anales de las Ordenanzas de Correos de España" in six volumes, which cover the Spanish postal legislation from 1283 to 1889. Of course there are also more recent monographs on the Spanish postage rates, mostly separated into domestic/foreign or for the period up to 1849 (pre-philately) and then from 1850, when the stamp era began.

If you could tell me exactly what you are looking for, I would be happy to give you a concrete literature tip!

Ralf,

Thank you for the response.

I see the error. However, I wonder if I am misreading something. Very possible since my French is not perfect.

The article by Estel in 2012 - title shown below.

Ah. I think I see what I misunderstand. I believe the author is referring only to the 5 centime marking - not the fee. This led to my confusion and to bad memory on the centime rate, which I incorrectly used. I was trying to make my understanding from this article work with the math - and made an error.

Zitat von robfaux

Ah. I think I see what I misunderstand. I believe the author is referring only to the 5 centime marking - not the fee. This led to my confusion and to bad memory on the centime rate, which I incorrectly used. I was trying to make my understanding from this article work with the math - and made an error.

This is exactly how it is, Rob!

You see, my good friend Jef always tells the truth – but in French!

Ralf,

thank you for your patience!

I am most interested in the period 1850-1875. I prefer mail between nations, though I do try to find a representative copy of internal mail so I can recognize rates and use patterns.

I did notice your earlier link for rates from 1886 - thank you for sharing that!

to introduce myself, I collect and exhibit the 24 cent 1861 US stamp on postal history. I started to learn western Europe mail over the last few years. part of the motivation is to better understand what happens to US mail once it crosses the Atlantic.

The other motivation is that I am enjoying learning and acquiring decent examples of world wide history (without losing all of my money in the process!).

An example of my primary collection is below. It shows an item from the US sent via the treaty with the French. I think I share the writeup elsewhere on this site.

Danke fur die hilfe!

Rob