Österreich - Italien

  • Hallo liebe Freunde,


    diese Traueranzeige konnte ich auf dem heutigen Tauschtag wegen der sehr schönen Optik nicht liegenlassen. :)


    09.05.1873 ab Bludenz nach Rom.


    Schöne Grüße
    Bayern-Nerv Volker

  • Hallo Volker,


    wenn man so ein schönes und frisches Stück für einen Zehner einsacken kann, sollte man das tun (und die Pizza im Steinofen lassen, was auch der Hüfte sehr gut tun, umfänglich meine ich). :D


    Herrliche DS - so etwas hätte ich gerne mal von Bayern.

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph



    "Der beste Platz für Politiker ist das Wahlplakat. Dort ist er tragbar, geräuschlos und leicht zu entfernen." Vicco von Bülow aka Loriot.




  • Hallo Christian,


    sehr schöner Brief - da weiß man gar nicht, welche Seite die schönere ist ... :P:P

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph



    "Der beste Platz für Politiker ist das Wahlplakat. Dort ist er tragbar, geräuschlos und leicht zu entfernen." Vicco von Bülow aka Loriot.




  • Hello everyone!


    I was able to find a few early letters from Austria to Italy recently for a good price so I can learn by researching them.


    This item is an 1865 letter from Trieste to Molfetta.
    The routing appears to be via Ancona and 21 kreuzer were paid in stamps.


    Updated Routing information:
    This must have taken rail from Trieste through Venetia, entering the Kingdom of Italy at Ferrara (backstamp). The Ancona-Foggia docket would seem to indicate it should take the new rail line on the Adriatic coast. I think it was finished at this time. I initially thought the Ancona docket might have indicated carriage by the Austrian Lloyd but it is clear that I knew too little.
    Triest Nov 1 or 4 ?


    Ferrara Nov 5, 1865


    Ancona ???


    Molfetta Nov 7, 1865


    Can anyone help me with this item?
    1. I do not understand the rate shown here. Is there a different rate for an overweight letter? I see 15 kr for the first wienerlot, but thought it was 15 kr per wienerlot.
    2. Is there a book or website that provides rate information for Austria in the 1850's to 1870's?


    Thank you for any help.
    Rob

  • Hello again!


    Now you can see what is motivating my posts.


    Here is another letter from Trieste, sent Feb 8, 1867 to Bologna.
    It appears that there are markings on the back, but they are blurred. One is likely a Bologna receiver.
    This time, there is 16 kreuzer paid in stamps.


    New writing on this item is here:
    -------------------------------------------------------
    The letter is dated in 1867. So, it makes sense that it would travel by railway, crossing the border at Cormons. It should have followed the line through Udine and Venica on its way to Padova. It would then take the Padova-Bologna line to its destination. There is not sufficient evidence to believe it would take the Austrian-Lloyd packet to Ancona from Trieste.


    So, I am only confused by the additional 6 kr on the rate. Is this an overweight letter or was some special service used that I am unaware of?
    -------------------------------------------------------
    Old writing on this is below:
    =======================================
    Bologna is closer to Ancona than Molfetta and I understand Austrian rates had a distance factor in addition to a weight factor, so I could see that making the 5 kr difference.
    What I was missing is the movement from 60 kr = 1 gulden to 100 kr = 1 gulden in 1857. I just recognized that this would change a 3 kr increment in rates to 5 kr with the 1.66 conversion between the two monetary systems.
    ========================================
    Thank you for any help and resources you can point me to.
    Rob

  • Hello all!


    I still find myself stumped by the two items in the above posts.
    I find the 1853 convention and I find the 1867 convention. But, I don't find support for these rates as they appear above. I feel like there should be something in 1862 that clarifies these rates and I have not yet found it.


    I suspect it is all very simple, but I've yet to see it. ?(


    Best,
    Rob

  • Hello Rob


    I´ve asked Cameo to help you, if he can. Hope we get this problem solved ...

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph



    "Der beste Platz für Politiker ist das Wahlplakat. Dort ist er tragbar, geräuschlos und leicht zu entfernen." Vicco von Bülow aka Loriot.




  • Hello Rob,


    I haven't seen your question before ...
    Here are the explications:


    The postal tariffs depend on the distance of the towns from the Austrian-Italian border. There were 3 sections (rayons) on the Austrian side and 2 sections on the Sardinian side.
    This resulted in the following tariffs:


    Austrian town in the 1st section and destination in the 1st Sardinian section: 10 Kr
    Austrian town in the 1st section and destination in the 2nd Sardinian section: 16 Kr
    Austrian town in the 2nd section and destination in the 1st Sardinian section: 16 Kr
    Austrian town in the 2nd section and destination in the 2nd Sardinian section: 21 Kr
    Austrian town in the 3rd section and destination in the 1st Sardinian section: 21 Kr
    Austrian town in the 3rd section and destination in the 2nd Sardinian section: 26 Kr


    The cover Triest (2nd austrian section / Rayon) to Molfetta (2nd Sardinian section / Rayon) = 21 Kr


    The cover Triest (2nd austrian section / Rayon) to Bologna(1st Sardinian section / Rayon) = 16 Kr


    I add to pages of the source document (unfortunately in German) from 1865. The first page shows the postal rates and the second pdf-file give the list of towns in the different Sections




    Best regards


    Martin

  • Danke Martin!


    Do you know when this rate become effective? I have seen reference to a change in 1862, but this is the first I've seen the documents showing these rates.


    I can work out the German as long as I am patient. I am afraid my very limited German is what makes it harder for me to find the resources. Once I have them, I usually can figure them out - even if I am slow.


    Your help is very much appreciated and your explanation is very clear.


    Rob

  • Hallo Rob, hallo Martin,


    @ Rob: Thank you for showing this exiting cover
    Martin: can you write the title of the book, please?


    @All: Wish you a nice week - looking forward to hear you :)

    Beste Grüsse von
    Bayern Social




    "Sammler sind glückliche Menschen"

  • @ Rob: Thank you for showing this exiting cover
    Martin: can you write the title of the book, please?

    I am just happy to be able to find interesting things and have the chance to research them. I am glad you enjoy seeing them. I think I know enough now to make pages for these. :)


    Rob

  • Guten Abend zusammen,


    @ Bayern Social : es handelt sich bei der Quelle um den Briefpost-Tarif "Italien IX" , der im Anhange des Postverordnungsblatts No 1 vom 07.01.1865, veröffentlicht wurde. Diese Anhänge sind meist verloren gegangen.
    (engl for Rob: The source is the postage rates "Italy IX" published in the Annex to the Postal Regulation No 1 of 07.01.1865. These annexes have mostly been lost)


    @ Rob : Dieser Tarif war bis zur Inkraftsetzung des neuen österreichisch-italienischen Postvertrages am 01.10.1867 gültig. Ursprünglich wurde der Tarif seit dem 01.01.1854 angewandt, allerdings muss man bedenken, daß am 01.11.1858 durch die Währungsreform erst die neuen Kreuzer eingeführt wurden. (engl for Rob: This tariff was valid until the application of the new Austrian-Italian postal convention the 01.10.1867. Originally the rate was applied since 01.01.1854, but we have to consider that on 01.11.1858 the new Kreuzer was introduced by the currency reform.)


    Hoffentlich helfen diese Angaben.


    Martin

    2 Mal editiert, zuletzt von Ungarn-1867 ()

  • Martin
    Danke! Das englisch wird geschätzt.


    My error must be in converting to the new kreuzer. It is not an exact 3 kr to 5 nkr conversion. So, rounding up at the old 9 kreuzer rates in the 1854 convention would give 16 new kreuzer. Suddenly it makes much more sense to me. It seems the 1862 agreement I have found is simply confirming the old convention as being back in force.


    I believe the confusion began by looking at Austrian internal rates and seeing 9 kr converting to 15 nkr. At that point, I assumed that the same progression would follow with Sardinian (and the Kingdom of Italy) rates.


    You patience and willingness to explain is appreciated.


    Rob

  • Hallo Sammlerfreunde,

    ein Frankobrief aus Wien (Habsburggasse) nach Mailand (seit 1859 italienisch). Der Brief wurde mit 15 Kreuzer korrekt frankiert.

    Datiert ist der Brief mit Wien am 4.10.1869.

    Auf der Siegelseite ist der Bahnpoststempel Udine-Verona abgeschlagen.

    Liebe Grüße

    Franz

  • Hallo Franz,


    sehr schöner Brief - was ich schon immer wissen wollte: Wie wurden die 15 Nkr. zwischen Ö und IT aufgeteilt?

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph



    "Der beste Platz für Politiker ist das Wahlplakat. Dort ist er tragbar, geräuschlos und leicht zu entfernen." Vicco von Bülow aka Loriot.




  • Hallo Ralph,

    ich zitiere aus dem Ferchenbauer-Katalog Band IV:

    Gemäß Postvertrag vom 23. April 1867, gültig ab 1. Oktober 1867, betrug das Gesamtporto nach Italien für einen einfachen Brief 15 Kreuzer (40 Centesimi). Die Gewichtsprogression war mit 15 Gramm (1 Zoll-Loth) festgelegt. ( Postverordnung Nr. 40 vom 12 August 1867)

    Die Einnahmen wurden ab diesem Zeitpunkt zwischen den beiden Postverwaltungen geteilt und die komplizierte Verrechnung insbesondere der teilfrankierten Belege konnte unterbleiben.

    Quelle: Ferchenbauer Band IV Seite 566

    Liebe Grüße

    Franz

  • Hallo Franz,


    klasse - hatte ich mir fast gedacht mit der Halbierung der Kosten. Danke fürs Nachschauen!

    Liebe Grüsse vom Ralph



    "Der beste Platz für Politiker ist das Wahlplakat. Dort ist er tragbar, geräuschlos und leicht zu entfernen." Vicco von Bülow aka Loriot.