From Amsterdam to Finland

  • Please, see the attached letter. Sent 22.aug 1845 from Amsterdam to Finland, directed via St.Petersburg. Why are there two post-marks from Hamburg - from the Prussian and the Stadtpost Office? I'm attaching a time-table showing that a Russian steamer was carrying mails, plying between Lübeck and St.Petersburg once a week having a departure 30 Aug 1845. There is another detail pointing at Lübeck. Lübeck was the only state in Western Europe having a transfer postage through Prussia of Sgr. The total postage up to the Russian border is indicated as 14½ (written upside down) reduced to 47 1/4 Kopecs. Adding 10 Kopecs for inland Russian postage we 're ending up with in total 57 1/4 Kopecs as found to the left. For the stage from Amsterdam to Hamburg I would expect 10 Hamburg Schillings, adding 2 H.Sch. up to Lübeck, summing up in 12 H.Sch. or 9 Sgr, but we've only 6 Sgr left for A'dam-Lübeck!

  • Hej Grenz-NL,


    ich antworte Dir auf deutsch, damit können, denke ich, alle problemlos mitlesen. Ansonsten PN an mich, ich spreche leidlich dänisch.


    Die internationalen Postrouten von und nach Hamburg waren zwischen den einzelnen Postämtern aufgeteilt. Für Briefsendungen von und nach den Niederlanden war das Hamburger Stadtpostamt zuständig. Für Briefsendungen nach Russland bzw. über Russland war das preussische Postamt in Hamburg zuständig. Deshalb sind auf dem Brief die Stempel dieser beiden Postämter zu finden.


    Viele Grüße
    DKKW

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Hallo Grenz-NL,


    ein ausgeprochen spannender Brief!


    Den Grund für die 2 hamburger Stempel hat DKKW ja schon richtig beschrieben.


    Da der Brief in Hamburg an die preußische Post übergeben wurde, erfolgte die weitere Beförderung nach Russland auch in Verantwortung der preußischen Post. Selbst wenn er über Lübeck mit dem Schiff transportiert wurde. Laut dem Vertrag von 1829 zwischen Lübeck und Preußen war allein die preußische Post für die Post nach Russland zuständig. Lübeck bekam nur eine Vergütung für den Transport der Briefpakete von Boitzenburg - abgehend vom preußischen Postkurs Hamburg-Berlin - zum preußischen Postkontor in Lübeck.


    Im niederländisch-preußischen Postvertrag von 1817 hatte sich die niederländische Post verpflichtet, alle Post nach Russland über Preußen zu leiten. Ein Austausch über Hamburg wurde dabei nicht aufgeführt, alle Taxen beziehen sich auf den Austausch über Emmerich/Cleve/Aachen/Trier.


    Laut einer preußischen Verordnung vom 13. Juli 1845 waren Briefe aus den Niederlanden folgendermassen zu taxieren:
    4 Sgr. Porto für die Niederlande (unabhängig vom Aufgabepostamt)
    8 Sgr. preußisches Transitporto
    Der Brief hätte demzufolge mit 12 Sgr. Portobelastung an Russland ausgeliefert werden müssen.


    Die Taxierung ist tatsächlich rätselhaft. Möglicherweise waren die Postbeamten irritiert, da die Leitung niederländischer Post über Hamburg
    für diese Briefe nicht vorgesehen war und es keine Unterlagen hierzu gab.
    Vielleicht wurde so gerechnet: Post aus Oldenburg, Dänemark etc., die über Hamburg nach Russland lief, wurde mit 6 Sgr. preußischem Porto und z.B. bei Briefen aus Oldenburg mit 2 1/2 Sgr. fremdem Porto belastet. So kann man auch auf 8 1/2 Sgr. kommen.


    Es sieht tatsächlich so aus, als wenn die rückseitig notierten 14 1/2 Sgr. in 47 1/4 Kop. umgerechnet wurden. Wie diese Zahlen zustande kamen, kann ich im Moment nicht erklären.


    Viele Grüße
    Michael

  • Thank you indeed for your reply. I have still some questions, because this is the only item to Russia via Hamburg since 1819, which I have seen. Has this letter been in Lübeck? Was it conveyed by steamer to SPB? The postage up to the Russian border was 12 Sgr since 13.July 1845. Here we see 14½ Sgr. Was it more expensive by boat than overland mail? Is via Stettin a possibility? There are many questions, and they are hard to find out.

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Hello Grenz-NL,

    ... because this is the only item to Russia via Hamburg since 1819, which I have seen.

    I also, in the former years the expedition via Hamburg was often used. It changed with the postal agreement betwenn the Netherlands and Prussia, I think.

    Zitat

    Has this letter been in Lübeck? Was it conveyed by steamer to SPB?

    May be, one can certainly say that only for letters from Russia to the west when there are convenient post marks.
    For the letters adressed to Russia it is mostly unclear.

    Zitat

    Was it more expensive by boat than overland mail?

    The tax was the same for expedition by land and sea.


    Zitat

    Is via Stettin a possibility?

    Definitly no. The first passage from Stettin to Kronstadt dated september, 13


    Best Regards
    Michael

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Hello Grenz-NL,


    I recently reconsidered the taxes and the possible routing of your letter. May be the following description is approaching the truth.


    The letter was sent unpaid (This wasn't regular, I suppose) from Amsterdam to Hamburg to the city post. There it was taxed with 10 Hamburger Schillings and delivered to the prussian post in Hamburg.
    The prussian post reduced the 10 Hamburger Schillings to 8 1/2 Sgr. and added the 6 Sgr. transit tax - as listed in the tax tables for letters from Hamburg to Russia. We find the related 14 1/2 Sgr. on the backside.
    In Russia this 14 1/2 Sgr. were reduced to the mentioned 47 1/4 Kop. and the inland tax of 10 Kop. added.


    Best regards
    Michael

  • Dear Michael. You're right in many aspects.
    There were no regulations in NL about sending the letters to Russia via Hamburg. There were newspaper advertisements of a steam-boat to SPB from Lübeck, without info on mail conveyance.
    The NL corresponded with the Stadtpost in Hamburg. The charged 10 Hamburg Schillings, ( Sgr) The letter was handed over to the Prussian Office in Hamburg.
    Now let us see how the Prussian Post calculated the transit postage since July 13th 1845:
    There is two shares for 24 destinations in Western Europe:
    - A foreign share
    - A pure Prussian share
    Especially for the NL
    - A foreign share of 4 Sgr
    - A pure Prussian share of 8 Sgr
    For an overland letter we must expect 12 Sgr up to the Russian Border, yet we see 14½
    Please proceed to the "conclusion" down below in another post
    I will try to upload the Prussian transit rates of July 13th 1845
    I dare only to upload one picture

    Einmal editiert, zuletzt von Grenz-NL () aus folgendem Grund: The original lines had so many wild theories, which have been corrected in private communication with "Michael"

    • Offizieller Beitrag

    Hello Grenz-NL,


    I'm not common with your view.
    There is no indication for inclusion of the Lübeck Post office.
    The postal rate of 2 1/2 + 6 Sgr. is only available for letters mailed at the Lübeck post office.
    In Hamburg the letter was delivered to the Prussian Post - see the prussian popstmark. Even when you suppose the letter were directed via Lübeck and shipped to Russia, the tax rate for letters from Hamburg to Russia persists at 6 Sgr.
    The transfer from Boitzenburg to Lübeck was settled internally between the Lübeck Post and the Prussian Post. There was no additional tax to pay.


    Best regards
    Michael

  • To send letters from the NL to Russia via Hamburg Stadtpost was something
    unusual for the Prussian Post. This routing was a loss for Prussia, so they
    compensated themselves by letting Russia pay an extra Sgr. (see below)
    This letter turned up in Hamburg Stadtpost with the unpaid postage of 10 Hamburg Schillings (7½ Sgr). The letter was handed over to the Prussian office with the expectation that Prussia would pay the 7½ Sgr to Stadtpost. By this arrangement the Prussian share would be smaller than by the normal route that avoided Hamburg. So Prussia compensated themselves and took the 7½ Sgr, added 1 Sgr to obtain Sgr hoping that Russia accepted this, which they did as seen from the final postage.


    The postage up to the Russian border was now plus 6 Sgr for the stage from Hamburg to the Russian Border ending up with 14½ Sgr


    The Prussian share was:
    - For the normal route 8 Sgr
    - Via Hamburg
    ------Without compensation 6 Sgr
    ------With 1 Sgr compensation 7 Sgr
    A private communication with "Michael"sorted this out. Thanks to "Michael"